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How to avoid getting banned or limited by the Corporates
West Australian Racing
Fastmoney
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Tips from an insider.
To introduce myself, I’ve worked in the gambling industry for roughly 4 years here in Australia and am doing so currently for a major corporate. I have, and currently do a fair bit of sports punting myself so I can relate to both worlds very clearly. Sometimes I read tweets and blogs and articles on major newspapers like The Age for instance and get annoyed because only one side of the story is presented. I understand the perspective of the bookie – hey I’ll admit I wouldn’t have a job if losing punters (you guys) didn’t pay my wage, and I understand the frustrations of not being able to get a bet on and getting restricted and getting my account closed. On the flip side, if bookies don’t make profits, you the punter have less options to bet with and hence less promotions and offers. It’s a vicious circle.
This brief article looks at how accounts get flagged and hence end up as a dreaded restricted accounts. The last thing any punter wants is to go enter in a stake and be told their business isn’t wanted. Why don’t they want my money? In short: yes, consistently winning punters are shown the door. But let’s understand why that’s the case before I go through typically how it happens. A corporate bookmakers overall aim is to make profits, because that’s what the owners and shareholders are looking for, nothing else. You don’t make growing profits, you lose your job. Individuals within the organisation get greedy and in-order to meet their individual targets look for ways to make more and more of a margin, an easy was to assist with this is to remove business (punters) who look like they will cut into their margins. Corporate bookmakers are complex beasts. Many hundred employees, across trading, marketing, IT, finance and so on. They’re all human, they all need to get paid, and so do the shareholders. I’ll be honest with you, there’s a culture of always trying to be unfair with the customer, and there doesn’t have to be. In other words, trying to deceive the customer, the very guys who pay our wages. As a punter myself it annoys me, because I know other bookmakers are doing it to me. The difference is, I understand it.
Anyway, back to the point of this article – how accounts get flagged. The couple bookmakers I’ve worked with have complex risk teams who monitor all customer betting activity, betting trends and so on. When I say ‘all’ betting activity I mean ‘all’ betting activity. Below I will go through a few techniques:
IP Addresses are tracked at both an account level as well as a bet level. Even though you try and create a new account under your mums name, if there’s ever a bet or account that has the same IP Address these are flagged immediately. Things like MAC addresses and the like are captured but to my knowledge are not used for filtering purposes. Also if you and “your mum” start betting on similar sports at similar times, your profiles will match.
Unique accounts – just like any business there are rules in place to ensure that same people do not have multiple accounts. Things like date of birth, suburb, address, device id of your android or apple device are compiled, and compared against one another on an ongoing basis. When new accounts are created they are compared against to the existing database instantly are these accounts are grouped and monitored.
Cookies. No I am not talking about the bad boys your grandmother gives you. Every time you appear at the bookmakers website either logged in or not they know you are there. In Australia these are automatically placed on your browser and there’s not much you can do about it, unless you clear your browser cookies each time. There are no laws like the UK where you have to opt into such behaviour. Everything from time the site was visited, to clicks on a page, to hover over links, to session length is stored and then you are profiled. There’s no hiding. From here you are placed in “user profile buckets” where suitable marketing or promotions or offers are chosen to be applied to your account to keep you engaged.
Social media – the two bookmakers that I’ve worked at have complex CRM (Customer Relationship Manager) systems that are constantly evolving. Risk and Customer Service teams are constantly trolling Twitter, Blogs, Facebook, employees from other bookmakers as well, tipping service subscriptions and people with industry knowledge and these are all noted on the customer’s account. Reports are generated daily basis on all betting activity (bets placed, profit/loss and so on) and these people are closely monitored. People who tweet together are put into “pools” and are known as “syndicates”, official or not. This is why some accounts get banned the very few minutes after they create an account. It’s because they get flagged via mechanisms above before they even create an account. I’ve seen accounts pre-created for people and restricted just in case they turn up some day. My favourite is when people post pictures of their accounts/betting slips on Twitter, it makes the job so easy to flag accounts.
Staking – when you create an account everyone has the same staking level. Once you start “winning” on a daily, weekly, monthly basis (everything is reported) your staking level starts to change or get reduced. If you are really crap at a particular sport the amount you can stake increases. This can be achieved per bet type or sport, or competition or split between racing and sport. This is why you see sometimes you can bet big stakes on cricket (it’s because you constantly lose here) but small stakes on racing (because you constantly win here). Why ban you completely? Bookmakers might as well restrict or ban you when you’re winning and let you lose where you’re losing. Most of this is manually performed at the moment, however the intelligence to make the decision is all automated.
Trends betting – If you and a few of your mates are betting on the same type of selections at the same time of the day, it will be noted. One of the two bookies I’ve been involved with have an engine that compares bets (exact bets) between different customers and looks for trends. This runs 24/7. If a whole bunch of people bet at the same time on the same selection, it’s obvious they are from the same tipping service. Do you think that bookmakers aren’t subscribing to these services themselves? You’re a bit naïve if you think they aren’t.
Tipping – ah, another favourite. Ever created a personal tipping competition between your mates? Well it is your lucky day you have all been grouped together, similar to the staking item above, if one punter within the tipping group is really good at Sport X, this may reduce the amount that can be bet by any members of the group.
Betting Back – don’t be fooled into thinking that every “good punter” is restricted or banned completely. Why would any bookmaker do that? Most of the really good guys have their bet taken, then the bookmaker will place the same bet at a better price back into Betfair (or at least hedge it for a loss), or place the same bet onshore or offshore at private bookies. I’ve heard things like bookmakers have systems to check arbers on particular Betfair markets but I’ve never witnessed or are aware of this system myself.
Bookmakers have got really sophisticated in the past few years because they know the Australian market is growing and will continue to grow over at least the next 5 years. They all want a piece of the massive market share pie. Don’t be put off by the promotions and special odds, they’re all for show. When Tom Waterhouse tells you to “take him on” that’s because he knows with a high degree of certainty that whatever selection he’s offering the enhanced odds on will lose. These bookmakers have models and systems in place that will provide them the result of a race. The guy sitting behind his computer at home has no chance against the 50 traders who work around the clock who do this stuff day in day out with complex modelling. You’ll never win. Bookmakers only exist if they take your money. On the other hand, they are not a charity, they’re a business.
The monitoring activities briefly listed above are just the tip of the iceberg. I’m sure in next to no time personalisation software will be able to map out every customer touchpoint or interaction that they have at any point so they can predict your next move before you even do it. My advice is – Big Brother is always watching. Do you want to keep out of the bookies eyes? Don’t make multiple accounts, clear your cookies, keep off social media or do it anonymously, throw the bookmaker off every so often with a really stupid bet. Everything gets reported. Everything is automatic. Everything gets monitored. I could ramble on all day really about a plethora of topics however I’ll leave it there. Hope to touch base again in the future.
To introduce myself, I’ve worked in the gambling industry for roughly 4 years here in Australia and am doing so currently for a major corporate. I have, and currently do a fair bit of sports punting myself so I can relate to both worlds very clearly. Sometimes I read tweets and blogs and articles on major newspapers like The Age for instance and get annoyed because only one side of the story is presented. I understand the perspective of the bookie – hey I’ll admit I wouldn’t have a job if losing punters (you guys) didn’t pay my wage, and I understand the frustrations of not being able to get a bet on and getting restricted and getting my account closed. On the flip side, if bookies don’t make profits, you the punter have less options to bet with and hence less promotions and offers. It’s a vicious circle.
This brief article looks at how accounts get flagged and hence end up as a dreaded restricted accounts. The last thing any punter wants is to go enter in a stake and be told their business isn’t wanted. Why don’t they want my money? In short: yes, consistently winning punters are shown the door. But let’s understand why that’s the case before I go through typically how it happens. A corporate bookmakers overall aim is to make profits, because that’s what the owners and shareholders are looking for, nothing else. You don’t make growing profits, you lose your job. Individuals within the organisation get greedy and in-order to meet their individual targets look for ways to make more and more of a margin, an easy was to assist with this is to remove business (punters) who look like they will cut into their margins. Corporate bookmakers are complex beasts. Many hundred employees, across trading, marketing, IT, finance and so on. They’re all human, they all need to get paid, and so do the shareholders. I’ll be honest with you, there’s a culture of always trying to be unfair with the customer, and there doesn’t have to be. In other words, trying to deceive the customer, the very guys who pay our wages. As a punter myself it annoys me, because I know other bookmakers are doing it to me. The difference is, I understand it.
Anyway, back to the point of this article – how accounts get flagged. The couple bookmakers I’ve worked with have complex risk teams who monitor all customer betting activity, betting trends and so on. When I say ‘all’ betting activity I mean ‘all’ betting activity. Below I will go through a few techniques:
IP Addresses are tracked at both an account level as well as a bet level. Even though you try and create a new account under your mums name, if there’s ever a bet or account that has the same IP Address these are flagged immediately. Things like MAC addresses and the like are captured but to my knowledge are not used for filtering purposes. Also if you and “your mum” start betting on similar sports at similar times, your profiles will match.
Unique accounts – just like any business there are rules in place to ensure that same people do not have multiple accounts. Things like date of birth, suburb, address, device id of your android or apple device are compiled, and compared against one another on an ongoing basis. When new accounts are created they are compared against to the existing database instantly are these accounts are grouped and monitored.
Cookies. No I am not talking about the bad boys your grandmother gives you. Every time you appear at the bookmakers website either logged in or not they know you are there. In Australia these are automatically placed on your browser and there’s not much you can do about it, unless you clear your browser cookies each time. There are no laws like the UK where you have to opt into such behaviour. Everything from time the site was visited, to clicks on a page, to hover over links, to session length is stored and then you are profiled. There’s no hiding. From here you are placed in “user profile buckets” where suitable marketing or promotions or offers are chosen to be applied to your account to keep you engaged.
Social media – the two bookmakers that I’ve worked at have complex CRM (Customer Relationship Manager) systems that are constantly evolving. Risk and Customer Service teams are constantly trolling Twitter, Blogs, Facebook, employees from other bookmakers as well, tipping service subscriptions and people with industry knowledge and these are all noted on the customer’s account. Reports are generated daily basis on all betting activity (bets placed, profit/loss and so on) and these people are closely monitored. People who tweet together are put into “pools” and are known as “syndicates”, official or not. This is why some accounts get banned the very few minutes after they create an account. It’s because they get flagged via mechanisms above before they even create an account. I’ve seen accounts pre-created for people and restricted just in case they turn up some day. My favourite is when people post pictures of their accounts/betting slips on Twitter, it makes the job so easy to flag accounts.
Staking – when you create an account everyone has the same staking level. Once you start “winning” on a daily, weekly, monthly basis (everything is reported) your staking level starts to change or get reduced. If you are really crap at a particular sport the amount you can stake increases. This can be achieved per bet type or sport, or competition or split between racing and sport. This is why you see sometimes you can bet big stakes on cricket (it’s because you constantly lose here) but small stakes on racing (because you constantly win here). Why ban you completely? Bookmakers might as well restrict or ban you when you’re winning and let you lose where you’re losing. Most of this is manually performed at the moment, however the intelligence to make the decision is all automated.
Trends betting – If you and a few of your mates are betting on the same type of selections at the same time of the day, it will be noted. One of the two bookies I’ve been involved with have an engine that compares bets (exact bets) between different customers and looks for trends. This runs 24/7. If a whole bunch of people bet at the same time on the same selection, it’s obvious they are from the same tipping service. Do you think that bookmakers aren’t subscribing to these services themselves? You’re a bit naïve if you think they aren’t.
Tipping – ah, another favourite. Ever created a personal tipping competition between your mates? Well it is your lucky day you have all been grouped together, similar to the staking item above, if one punter within the tipping group is really good at Sport X, this may reduce the amount that can be bet by any members of the group.
Betting Back – don’t be fooled into thinking that every “good punter” is restricted or banned completely. Why would any bookmaker do that? Most of the really good guys have their bet taken, then the bookmaker will place the same bet at a better price back into Betfair (or at least hedge it for a loss), or place the same bet onshore or offshore at private bookies. I’ve heard things like bookmakers have systems to check arbers on particular Betfair markets but I’ve never witnessed or are aware of this system myself.
Bookmakers have got really sophisticated in the past few years because they know the Australian market is growing and will continue to grow over at least the next 5 years. They all want a piece of the massive market share pie. Don’t be put off by the promotions and special odds, they’re all for show. When Tom Waterhouse tells you to “take him on” that’s because he knows with a high degree of certainty that whatever selection he’s offering the enhanced odds on will lose. These bookmakers have models and systems in place that will provide them the result of a race. The guy sitting behind his computer at home has no chance against the 50 traders who work around the clock who do this stuff day in day out with complex modelling. You’ll never win. Bookmakers only exist if they take your money. On the other hand, they are not a charity, they’re a business.
The monitoring activities briefly listed above are just the tip of the iceberg. I’m sure in next to no time personalisation software will be able to map out every customer touchpoint or interaction that they have at any point so they can predict your next move before you even do it. My advice is – Big Brother is always watching. Do you want to keep out of the bookies eyes? Don’t make multiple accounts, clear your cookies, keep off social media or do it anonymously, throw the bookmaker off every so often with a really stupid bet. Everything gets reported. Everything is automatic. Everything gets monitored. I could ramble on all day really about a plethora of topics however I’ll leave it there. Hope to touch base again in the future.
+1 -1
notapunta, bookielover, SLIPPERGOLDEN, brady likes this post.
Comments
cheers
Carlosa, notapunta, SLIPPERGOLDEN, RIO, nosoup4u, Downbythepalms, squid69 likes this post.
The only part I will strongly disagree with, particularly about Perth racing, is that the traders know what they are doing and you can't beat them.
The blokes doing the prices on Perth racing at present are clueless. I guess that's why they spend so much on profiling customers rather than spend the money on a professional to price their markets. That strategy would save them just as much money.
I wonder how they are going with the new Sydney betting limits?
Of course, the Cowboys won. My mood was bad but I had some money to console me :D
TheDiva likes this post.
The other day I said I needed some 'chin up' money as my horse at 100/1 came second, I was depressed and wasn't at all pleased with the interface of the bookies app, and was going to switch.
I'm in the same boat as voodoo though, don't see myself getting banned or limited anytime soon.... Has only happened once, and that was a big day with 365
If the Racing NSW betting limits aren`t expanded and policed, successful punters will continue to look for alternatives (many offshore) that return nothing to Australian racing.
Ridersonthestorm33 likes this post.
Haven`t had the same experience with Sportsbet and Luxbet
Operate with a $750 limit (including stake) with Tabtouch, all bets with Tab straight to book manager, regularly rejected or limited and similar with UBET.
Ubet should be auto, most likely to win between $500 and $1000
Citibet is a major competitor that could have a major impact on the returns to the racing industry.
And anyone who starts betting with Citibet won`t return to Australian markets.
How pro's manipulate the market
Tony Hargraves discussing market manipulation on this week's Betting 360 podcast:
'I’ve done it for a professional trader out in Australia. I was out there in 2011 for a few months and I spent some time with someone showing them exactly how to do this and it was just incredible to watch on a daily basis. He would tell me which horse he wanted to back with the bookmakers, so it was my job to make that horse drift on Betfair just by putting sustained money into lay it. Say the horse was trading quite happily there at $6.00, he’d say to me, “Can you get it up to $10.00?” I would just start laying it and then put more money in front of that. The other people would follow, they’d put money in front of me, and then I’d go in front of them, and we’d rise this horse up to $10.00.'
'At that point he’d be on the phone to the bookmaker, the bookmaker’s now driven it up $9.00, so he’s at 8/1, and then he’ll smash it, bang. He’ll take a big bet with the bookmaker and then he’ll say, “Right, bin it.” Then I would have to back it back down to where it was with sustained money on the other side, I’d just keep backing it, backing it, backing it, get it all the way back down to $6.00 and then he’d quite happily sit there and lay it. He’s effectively just hammered the bookie at $9.00 and we’ve laid it back at Betfair to $6.00. Yeah, that was what we call “arbing” or trading. He can’t lose either way now, he’s basically bought something for $6.00 and sold it for $9.00.'
'It worked very well. Nearly every race we picked they would just follow blindly. We could pick any horse out and just start laying it and pushing it up. We’re backing it on the way back down, so all the lay bets I did on the way up were effectively cancelled out by back bets coming back down. We ended up with a neutral position on Betfair, a decent bet on a bookie at $9.00 when the real price should’ve been $6.00, and then just before the race we put in a nice lay bet at $6.00, people have seen it getting hammered from $10.00 down to $6.00 so they go, “Oh look, they’re backing this now,” and they all take our money at $6.00 and that was that.'
'The result of the race then was inconsequential. It didn’t matter which horse, you could pick any horse in any race virtually and the bookies would just follow. If we had it at $8.00 they’d go up to $7.00, if we had it at $12.00 they’d go up to $10.00 or $11.00.'
jum, bookielover dislikes this post.
Just a disgusting low act in my opinion.
I accidentally pressed the like icon on that post. I couldn't dislike it more if I tried.
it's very complicated though. =))
Fastmoney, TheDiva, Jordan, Legless, Nevershowsurprise likes this post.
therealkramer likes this post.
hash dislikes this post.