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So what farms are happy this season?

Breeding
DaleDale    1,346 posts
edited November 2014 Breeding
Just thinking of the breeding industry in WA and the "commercial" studs. Season is drawing to a close and was wondering who is happy to get out of bed and go through the day. From what i hear, only UR and trade fair have books. I dont mean an owner sending 30, 40+ mares to a bull, i mean commercial cash up for grabs.Just interested in what is happening across the board. Any insite?

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Comments

  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    8,008 posts
    I think the numbers start being published on the Studbook in December, with final numbers in January. From conversation with the stud, both Blackfriars and Universal Ruler have had pleasing books. I have spoken to managers of several stallions that are under the pump.

    We find out in a few weeks I guess.
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  • DaleDale    1,346 posts
    i would imagine that's it. Unless there is a little smokey somewhere. Remove the commercial aspect to my question and I do hope playing god got some numbers.
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  • SPUDLEYSPUDLEY    1,584 posts
    From what I heard today the horse industry is heading down a rocky road.
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  • LeglessLegless    5,108 posts
    I have been hearing the same thing for at least 25 years

    Dale, RIO likes this post.

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  • IntoItIntoIt    659 posts
    Does it get harder to ignore though? when you can go to a horse like Reset [Falkner, Set Square etc] for 17k. What do we have in the same price range, Blackfriars, Warchant. How would they rate in the east? Tough...
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  • CPLCPL    632 posts
    edited November 2014
    I think that it's a no brainer that if you have anything like a good mare she goes east. If you have anything like a non commercial mare she goes to one of our non-commercial sires.

    Dream, hope, fingers crossed it's all the same it's just that a stallion over east will only increase your chances if you've picked correctly.
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  • LeglessLegless    5,108 posts
    Into It said:

    Does it get harder to ignore though? when you can go to a horse like Reset [Falkner, Set Square etc] for 17k. What do we have in the same price range, Blackfriars, Warchant. How would they rate in the east? Tough...

    Very tough. Same could be said if those 3 were to stand here - they would find it tough, I dont think the current broodmare band here has enough depth to do them justice.
    Its the tyranny of distance that has to be overcome - its not impossible , the NZ breeding industry has shown that it can be done. However their success comes from NZ sired/bred horses performing well on Aussie soil, particularly in NSW and Vic. Racing in NZ  is probably at the same level as here IMHO however we have better prizemoney.
    Unfortunately its just the way it is - if  WA sired horses started performing consistently well in the VIC and NSW carnivals the better mares would be sent here. The down side is that our standard of racing would not improve if all our good ones were to race permanently east of the rabbit proof fence.
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  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    8,008 posts
    So, is it the opinion of the forum, that breeders in WA try to make commercial decisions because they have been enticed into believing the a Stallion is commercial and they simply have not bred a stakes quality horse as a result ? Because if WA was producing genuine stakes winners, that could perform in the East at will, then surely commercial success would follow ?

    In my opinion, a minority, largely determines what gets offered here through most of the sales, and the results of those breeding decisions have been a dumbing down of the level of competitiveness of the stock on offer.

    Purely on strike rate, Neville Duncan must be bucking that trend with his consistent stakes results. In privately held stock, Bob Peters is miles in front of him again. But I can't think of another breeder who has either with held stock, or taken it to the sales ring, and kept pace with these two gentlemen. Based on conversations, some many years ago, on the philosophy of their breeding choices, neither of them said commercial decisions drove them to one choice and one choice only.

    I'm putting on my helmet now for the inevitable barrage of 'what would I know'. But I think these two blokes have it going on.
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  • IntoItIntoIt    659 posts

    When Bob Peters starts breeding from local stallions consistently, and then taking the resulting progeny east, with confidence, WA will be on the right path. Right now, he breeds and buys in the east and brings them back here. He knows our prize money is great. Coould he single handedly lift the quality? Trouble is , he owns them all! But he does give WA to buy into his progeny through the dispersal sales.

    Also think its the lack of competion with auction houses moreso the lack of vendors.

    Damien Wyer said:


    So, is it the opinion of the forum, that breeders in WA try to make commercial decisions because they have been enticed into believing the a Stallion is commercial and they simply have not bred a stakes quality horse as a result ? Because if WA was producing genuine stakes winners, that could perform in the East at will, then surely commercial success would follow ?

    In my opinion, a minority, largely determines what gets offered here through most of the sales, and the results of those breeding decisions have been a dumbing down of the level of competitiveness of the stock on offer.

    Purely on strike rate, Neville Duncan must be bucking that trend with his consistent stakes results. In privately held stock, Bob Peters is miles in front of him again. But I can't think of another breeder who has either with held stock, or taken it to the sales ring, and kept pace with these two gentlemen. Based on conversations, some many years ago, on the philosophy of their breeding choices, neither of them said commercial decisions drove them to one choice and one choice only.

    I'm putting on my helmet now for the inevitable barrage of 'what would I know'. But I think these two blokes have it going on.

    And some of those you speak of Damien raced the stallions themselves and are breeding to race. Good luck to them for having the deep pockets. And thats how Bob started out. Bob is someone the industry should use as a blueprint.

    When Bob comes knocking on your door Tivers you know your doing something right!

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  • LeglessLegless    5,108 posts
    edited November 2014
    Damien Wyer said:

    So, is it the opinion of the forum, that breeders in WA try to make commercial decisions because they have been enticed into believing the a Stallion is commercial and they simply have not bred a stakes quality horse as a result ? Because if WA was producing genuine stakes winners, that could perform in the East at will, then surely commercial success would follow ?

    Not sure if its the forums opinion, however it is mine. Did qualify  with " ... performing consistently well in the VIC and NSW ..."
    Damien Wyer said:


    Purely on strike rate, Neville Duncan must be bucking that trend with his consistent stakes results. In privately held stock, Bob Peters is miles in front of him again. But I can't think of another breeder who has either with held stock, or taken it to the sales ring, and kept pace with these two gentlemen. Based on conversations, some many years ago, on the philosophy of their breeding choices, neither of them said commercial decisions drove them to one choice and one choice only.

    Did they mention any reason for this line of thought? Is it because they breed to race?
    Other than his dispersal sales I am not aware of Peters putting drafts through the local sales. Looking at his runners both last week and on this Saturday there is only one I can see bred to a local stallion (Fath).

    A quick look at the Oakland Park honour role shows that they have retained ownership in nearly all of the horses they have bred that have had racetrack success

    Tivers likes this post.

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  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    edited November 2014
    Hope you're not referring to me having deep pockets ???
    Severely misguided if so.
    If anything - an example that it can be done on a shoe string.

    Back to the topic though - to me "commercial" means the level of stakes that can be earned from matings compared to the costs of producing said mating.
    I have no regard, or concern, whatsoever for sales entries or results.

    On that measure - more than happy to get the tape out...

    Carlosa likes this post.

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  • CPLCPL    632 posts
    edited November 2014
    Commercial hmm yes the mare pulls some of the strings BUT if her future is hinged off her runners then an I Am Incincible, STARSPANGLEDBANNER or an Encosta Delago gives her some hope then what we can provide.
    A mediocre horse passed in a a sale or bought for little money always pops up in the big races and can win and they are ALL eastern state sired horses.
    We send our better horses over and have no hope.
    We can't blame every mare in WA but when I see sires from here mixing it over there then I'll be convinced,
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  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    8,008 posts
    If breeding choices did not have anything to do with money, surely the mares breeders own, would be mated to those Stallions that best suit them to produce stakes winners ?

    So in Bob Peter's case, the financial question is largely unimportant, and as a result he has a constant stream of stakes winners this season. He has removed the worry if a Stallion is commercial or not, because he breeds to race and can afford any fee charged. It just has to be the right choice.

    There are several breeders here in WA who could easily do likewise.

    Tivers likes this post.

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  • LeglessLegless    5,108 posts
    Damien Wyer said:

    If breeding choices did not have anything to do with money, surely the mares breeders own, would be mated to those Stallions that best suit them to produce stakes winners ?

    Would be a completely different industry. Would probably drive your mare to the paddock the stallion is in - leave her there overnight, pick her up in the morning and drop a gold coin in the tin at the gate on the way out
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  • SPUDLEYSPUDLEY    1,584 posts
    The breeders over east have a very clear advantage over the breeders here one that will never be beaten as they have 3 states where it is only a matter of a float trip to any commercial stallion , over here we have hardly any commercial stallions that can match them plus the strength of their broodmares is huge.

    Bob Peters and Neville Duncan are both very canny breeders and have strong broodmare bands.

    Whilst working at Segenhoe in 1997 I used to feed a paddock of weanling colts they were all full or half brothers to G1 winners .

    But I will say of the 33 yearlings I helped prep for the Easter sales none were any good no matter what family they were from , but the answer may have been who most were by as Naturalism was a dud. So even big studs can stuff up.
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  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    While I get what you are saying, in my definition (some of) our bulls are "commercial".
    We, for example, have a stable full of their progeny going around at in excess of 30% winning strike rate, including multiple recent stakes winners. Most have cost us next to nothing (breeding wise).

    As you say - the costs of going east are inhibitive (not sure that's a word), so what's not commercial about producing results like that, for a fraction of the cost (much more profitable - "commercial").

    So being able to at least achieve that makes them commercial in my eyes.
    The vast majority of foals don't go through the sales at all, so what those that do achieve in price in that regard is of little relevance (very small sample).

    And Yes, they're not winning races over East - but doing so does nothing for the bottom line (other than add a heap of costs), so who really cares.

    RIO likes this post.

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  • RIORIO    14,902 posts
    I like the above. Breeding for the local market, and getting a return on spend...everyone has different goals but most owner/breeders would be happy to achieve that
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  • jesteressjesteress    103 posts
    ive always understood 'commercial' in the breeding world only to petrain to onselling opportunities of a stallion. a stallion may throw commercial stock or be a breed to race venture...

    Dale likes this post.

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  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    edited November 2014
    Probably a good definition - sells a commercial volume of covers, for a commercial fee.
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  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    8,008 posts
    The definition should also be expanded to include his stock selling for a commercial return for those who take weanlings and yearlings through sales preparations.
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  • WestoverWestover    11 posts
    Well we are only a small fish in this big pond, but we are relatively happy with this breeding season. Although we have only covered a small number of mares ( all with some issues and only me on staff), we have a good strike rate. Only a couple left to cover I am a happy chappy.

    Bring on August 2015 for the babies to start arriving.

    RIO, DamienWyer, lame likes this post.

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