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Did Precedence deserve a Start in the Cup?

East Coast Racing
PCPC    2,265 posts
edited November 2013 East Coast Racing
As
we all know by now, Precedence was not in the final field for this
years Melbourne Cup. When Bruce McAvaney (channel 7) asked the VRC
Chairman if Precedence was considered to run in the Melbourne Cup the
VRC Chairman said that the only way Precedence would of got a run would
be if the VRC Committee considered that any horse above Precedence (who
was 25th in the order of entry) was out of form. So answer me this
everyone, why wasn't Precedence allowed into the Cup field and a horse
called Ethiopia balloted out? Precedence's last five runs have resulted
in two wins and one 2nd. Those two wins have been at Group level in open
company and one of those wins has been this campaign in the G2 Moonee
Valley Cup. Ethiopia on the other hand has not won since April 2012 and
Ethiopia's career record currently reads
as 13 starts: 1-1-2. The only win Ethiopia has registered was the G1
ATC Derby in 2012. Now for a moment - take away the fact that Precedence
is trained by Bart and James Cummings and just look at the stats of
both horses and I think the stats are as clear as day. Ethiopia has been
out of form for a long time, Precedence is in form. I think the VRC
should of used it's discretionary powers and balloted out Ethiopia and
allowed Precedence to run. Let's face it - Precedence I don't think
would have done well in the Cup because it can't run 3200m but on the
current form of Ethiopia, does this horse have a chance of doing well in
the Cup and also on current form.....out of the two horses.......who
deserves to run in the Cup? The stats say it all. Look forward to seeing
your comments on this and happy for you to agree or disagree etc etc.
+1 -1

Comments

  • PCPC    2,265 posts
    I guess some people could also question Simenon and why this horse is in
    the Cup. Simenon hasn't won a Group/Listed race yet in its' career.
    However it has placed in Group/Listed races.

    Chelsea dislikes this post.

    +1 -1
  • thefalconthefalcon    20,485 posts

    Mmmmm this is a difficult one pc. maybe they looked at ethiopias good 4th today.

    i think they made the right decision, bearing in mind barts reputation.

    sentiment cannot have any place in this.

    you never know, one might be out by tuesday....anything can happen.

    +1 -1
  • PCPC    2,265 posts
    Falcon - there are no emergencies, so if one does come out by Tuesday, Precedence still misses out on a run in the Cup because there are not emergencies.
    +1 -1
  • LuckyLongshotsLuckyLongshots    4,270 posts
    edited November 2013
    Right decision.

    Precedence has had 3 chances to win the Melbourne Cup, finishing 8th, 9th and 11th

    Ethiopia has had one chance (last year) and pulled up sore in the event - finishing last.
    Had Ethiopia not have run as well as it did today, think Precedence would have got a run.

    Not sure how you can have an issue with Simenon - last three starts have resulted in two seconds at Group 1 and Group 2 level in the UK, then has proved that he has aclimatised here with a very good run for 3rd in the Herbert Power.

    Precedence has had his chance and has to pass the mantle to another horse!

    The other thing is - if you want your horse in the Cup, you have to run them in races that will get them a ballot exemption.

    Aussiereds72, thefalcon likes this post.

    +1 -1
  • ChelseaChelsea    1,369 posts
    edited November 2013
    Right decision, had his chance to have success in the cup.he could not possibly win it if in the field.at least Simenon is a winning chance after its placing at caufield
    +1 -1
  • SPUDLEYSPUDLEY    1,584 posts
    NO

    SLIPPERGOLDEN likes this post.

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  • IndyIndy    212 posts
    No room for sentimentality here. Bart fully knows what he has to do to get a horse in the Cup, no excuses.

    In saying that, I think we are a bit loose with entry for some of these International raiders. A few have done sweet F all and should be made to at least compete in lead up races here to show their credentials.

    thefalcon likes this post.

    +1 -1
  • SLIPPERGOLDENSLIPPERGOLDEN    8,452 posts
    Spudley is spot on. A very firm NO

    thefalcon likes this post.

    +1 -1
  • bookieloverbookielover    2,709 posts
    I'm very happy that they didn't give the horse a run.
    There's a lot to be said about Bart not known to the general public. 

    He may have the respect of most of the punting public, but if the true story of how he treated his late brother, big punter Pat Cummings who died broke, was ever told, you would all have a very different opinion of him.
    I have got no respect for him at all. Great trainer, very ordinary human being.
    +1 -1
  • Piston_BrokePiston_Broke    2,047 posts
    Bart was dead n buried until Chin Nam saved him
    +1 -1
  • PCPC    2,265 posts
    bookielover said:

    I'm very happy that they didn't give the horse a run.

    There's a lot to be said about Bart not known to the general public. 

    He may have the respect of most of the punting public, but if the true story of how he treated his late brother, big punter Pat Cummings who died broke, was ever told, you would all have a very different opinion of him.
    I have got no respect for him at all. Great trainer, very ordinary human being.
    bookielover said:

    I'm very happy that they didn't give the horse a run.

    There's a lot to be said about Bart not known to the general public. 

    He may have the respect of most of the punting public, but if the true story of how he treated his late brother, big punter Pat Cummings who died broke, was ever told, you would all have a very different opinion of him.
    I have got no respect for him at all. Great trainer, very ordinary human being.

    Tell us more about Bart - I'm interested.

    paraletic likes this post.

    +1 -1
  • SLIPPERGOLDENSLIPPERGOLDEN    8,452 posts
    Cup eve isn't a great time to be negative about the greatest Melbourne Cup trainer but seeing as Bookielover has raised the issue then I believe he appears to be on the ball with his info. Closer to home a very good friend used to work high up in the hospitality industry dealing with 'celebrities'. I once asked her who were the nicest and most down to earth people she had met and she replied it is hard to pick out the best but the worst is a stand out. I'd hoped maybe Bart had just had a few off days.
    +1 -1
  • PCPC    2,265 posts

    I have a mate who used to work at Think Big stud and the stuff he has told me is not good - that Bart is not a nice person etc etc.

     

    But he does say that he is a freak of a trainer but just not a nice person. But he said Anthony and his two sons are nice.

    So I guess I will always respect him as a trainer.

     

    Maybe in private life he is not so nice but I don't know but it appears others have seen it or heard it. Regardless.........let's just celebrate a great training career.

    +1 -1
  • bookieloverbookielover    2,709 posts
    PC, maybe one day I will tell the story. 

    The media tend, well not tend, always pump up people who achieve great things in life. As a trainer, Bart has no peer especiallyy when it comes to the MC. Does any of that career achievement by Bart, or others who have achieved greatness in their fields of endeavour translate to their personal lives?

    Generally speaking, you find great actors, have miserable private lives. Orlando Bloom and Miranda Kerr, are just two of the latest that have been unable to translate success in acting and modelling into success in their private lives. Shane Warne great cricketer, hopeless in his private life. How many jockeys are divorced on drugs etc. How many trainers have had private lives that have been a disaster. Leigh Freedman ring a bell?

    Bart is no different, and it is unfortunate that the hero worshipping public will put aside all moral and ethical sins committed by our so called "heroes" in light of their ability in their chosen sporting field.

    And don't even begin to get me started on AFL footballers. Remember Ben Cousins, and his best mate Johnny Quizon? Need I say more?

    If Bart had destroyed his own life, then as sad as that would have been, it's his life. But he destroyed his brothers, and that was and is unforgivable.
    When he's gone, and looking at him, I don't think it will be long, the media will publish story after story about his greatness. Every jockey that ever rode for him will laud his achievements.

    But, as a human being, a decent honourable individual, Bart will have a lot to answer for to the man, or lady, upstairs. 
    +1 -1
  • SLIPPERGOLDENSLIPPERGOLDEN    8,452 posts
    edited November 2013
    bookielover said:

    Bart will have a lot to answer for to the man, or lady, upstairs. 

    He would be lost in the queue as there would been many other catholic lads with far worse credentials ahead of him.

    SPUDLEY, paraletic likes this post.

    +1 -1
  • SPUDLEYSPUDLEY    1,584 posts
    Just like a lot of single minded people they don't care who they hurt as long as they win.
    +1 -1
  • LuckyLongshotsLuckyLongshots    4,270 posts
    edited November 2013
    Ethiopia proved his worth

    7th

    Precedence never got that close - case closed!

    Aussiereds72 likes this post.

    +1 -1
  • JordanJordan    1,827 posts
    edited November 2013
    And ran very well loomed up on turning absolutely travelling looked all over a winner just didn't sprint as hard as the others is very dour that's for sure but great run nonetheless

    Aussiereds72, Bondyjnr likes this post.

    +1 -1
  • LuckyLongshotsLuckyLongshots    4,270 posts
    Think they just have to find the right races for Ethiopia - The big Group 1's might be just a stretch above him - surely they can find some G2 or G3 WFA races that he'd be very competitive in.

    thefalcon, Bondyjnr likes this post.

    +1 -1
  • TheDivaTheDiva    13,248 posts
    Jordan said:

    And ran very well loomed up on turning absolutely travelling looked all over a winner just didn't sprint as hard as the others is very dour that's for sure but great run nonetheless

    we laid a bet of $500 ew at $91 about Ethiopia.
    He had me very very worried on the bend....was travelling that well!
    +1 -1
  • thefalconthefalcon    20,485 posts

    8-X  diva at the turn... [-O<

     

    $-)  diva at the 100m... [-O<
    +1 -1
  • PCPC    2,265 posts

    Won the Group 3 VRC Queen Elizabeth Stakes today (2600m). Had earnt a start in the 2014 Melbourne Cup according to this article below.

     

    http://www.racingandsports.com.au/en/racing/cummings-makes-amends-for-cup-absence-story-289849

     

     

     

    Also, Precedence became the first horse to do the Moonee Valley Cup-VRC Queen Elizabeth Stakes double in the one year. A good effort.

     

    Also became the first horse to do the:

     

    Premiers Cup-Moonee Valley Cup-VRC Queen Elizabeth Stakes treble in the one year. Again a good effort.

     

    Has been an up-and-down horse but on his day he is good. Frustrating could be one word to describe the horse in terms of people backing him when he is expected to win and not winning and then winning when he is not expected to win.

    But a pretty good career I think.

     

     

    Precedence (Zabeel - Kowtow)

    Bought for $180,000

    Career Record: 55 Starts: 10-6-2

    Prize Money: $1,739,780

    Major Wins:

    2013 Group 2 Moonee Valley Cup (2500m SWP)

    2010 Group 2 Moonee Valley Cup (2500m SWP)

    2013 Group 3 VRC Queen Elizabeth Stakes (2600m hcp)

    2013 Group 3 Premiers Cup (2200m hcp)

    2010 Group 3 J.R.A Cup (2040m hcp)

    2010 Listed Manion Cup (2400m hcp)


    Best Minor Performances:

    4th - 2012 Group 1 Australian Cup (2000m WFA)

    3rd - 2012 Group 2 Sandown Classic (2400m WFA)

    4th - 2012 Group 2 Moonee Valley Cup (2500m SWP)

    2nd - 2011 Group 2 St George Stakes (1800m WFA)

    3rd - 2010 Group 2 Herbert Power Strakes (2400m Qlty)

    4th - 2010 Group 2 Dato Tan Chin Nam Stakes (1600m WFA)

    2nd - 2012 Listed Manion Cup (2400m Qlty hcp)

    2nd - 2009 Listed VRC St Ledger (2800m SWP)

    +1 -1
  • darkshinesdarkshines    2,837 posts
    Not done with yet now hes beginning to settle. Race didnt suit him at all with tempo yet he still won. Wouldve beat Ethiopia home no qualms.

    Bondyjnr likes this post.

    +1 -1
  • thefalconthefalcon    20,485 posts

    the cummings camp will treat him like a ming vase this year.

    a 9yo winning the cup? probably not but the stable will give it a mighty shake.

    +1 -1
  • darkshinesdarkshines    2,837 posts

    You'd be stunned if he could win a Cup at 9, let alone get into it.

     

    But plenty of other lesser G1s around for him.

    +1 -1
  • PCPC    2,265 posts

    Reg Fleming (Bart's stable foreman in Melbourne) insists Precedence is a better horse then Rogan Josh, according to this article which was done last week.

     

    http://www.smh.com.au/sport/horseracing/bart-cummings-spry-glasses-20131101-2ws82.html

    +1 -1
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