DONGARA CUP DAY!!

Legless · April 2014

point is without bookies all you will have is the tote.

If you win the corporates will ban you.

If there is no bookies then the tote can do as they please - take as much as they like from the pool - set maximum divies - say $10 the outsider.

If the bookies go as you suggest they will - it will be a sad,sad day :((

youknowit · April 2014

PT You did make comments about all legal on another post.Amazing how you mouth off, be nasty sarcastic and rude about all things bookmaking but never ever answer any questions put to you.I can tell by your answers and comments about everything that you are an upmarket businessman so i will bow to your better judgement about everything!

PuntingTragic · April 2014

youknowit said:
PT You did make comments about all legal on another post.Amazing how you mouth off, be nasty sarcastic and rude about all things bookmaking but never ever answer any questions put to you.I can tell by your answers and comments about everything that you are an upmarket businessman so i will bow to your better judgement about everything!

I did not make any comments about all legal I don't even know the horse I challenge you to find where I did

Yes bow low lower lower that's a good bookies clerk ditch the Bintang singlet

Legless said:
point is without bookies all you will have is the tote.

If you win the corporates will ban you.

If there is no bookies then the tote can do as they please - take as much as they like from the pool - set maximum divies - say $10 the outsider.

If the bookies go as you suggest they will - it will be a sad,sad day :((

PuntingTragic · April 2014

Legless as night follows day bookies on course are on borrowed time

SLIPPERGOLDEN · April 2014

youknowit said:TALKING ABOUT THE BOOKIES IN PERTH FOR GODS SAKE! NO MENTION OF MOORA!

You made an initial negative comment re Dongara bookies and a further comment in the discussion compares bookies from different eras so my comment is Moora v Dongara as well as 70s 80s comparison is totally valid... So obviously youDON'Tknowit

youknowit · April 2014

Slipper, made no negative comment about Dongara bookies was only repeating Puntings comments and asking him some questions.

SLIPPERGOLDEN · April 2014

I scanned your comment too quickly and realise now you were referring to PTcomment so apology for that but my statement remains relevant to the discussion in general.

paraletic · April 2014

only way I can see on course bookies surviving is to take the favs on. If they think the fav will get done, roll up their sleeves and really take the bugger on!!! Its too easy for me to pull out the phone and have a bet with Tom if you are offering the same price.

bookielover · April 2014

O.K. P.T. I accept that you have nothing personal against bookies per se.

I don't know if bookies will still be around in 5 years time. What I do know, is that the bookies with whom I talk keep telling me that "the game is gone", yet NONE have resigned and all intend to keep their licenses for the next season commencing in August.

A relative of mine who is a rails bookmaker in Sydney, is holding around 100 grand in cash every Saturday on the "ordinary" meetings and more on the big meetings. He has very few credit clients because he is sick of them taking the knock on him. He is also getting money out of punters whom the Corps have barred. He used to hold 3 times as much, but decided that holdings are not important. Getting paid is. So he has adjusted his thinking accordingly to the smaller turnover. He is a far happier person for doing so.

Putting my relative aside, for the moment, the bookies that I know in Melbourne have had to adjust to smaller turnovers for 8 months of the year, and to operate their book accordingly, and then, when September till the end of November and February and March come around, they can work up, hold far more money, and that makes having the license worth while. For some, the adjustment has not been easy, and it has taken them time to get their heads around the fact that they just cannot hold the money they were.

One of my mates worked in a certain area of Flemington for the 4 days of the Melbourne Cup carnival last year. His turnover was 320,000 for the 4 days. In 2012 in the same area, it was 400,000. BUT, in 2012, he won 80,000 after expenses for the 4 days, last year, he won exactly the same off the lesser turnover. As my mate said, "it's not how much I hold that matters, it's what I win."

Racing needs on-course bookies desperately. Even if the powers that be wake up to themselves and take control of the situation that currently exists with the Corps, that is the barring of winning punters, them not having to bet punters to lose a certain amount like the on track bookies, and not paying a decent tax to the race clubs, it is on-track bookies that are responsible for the amount that is wagered through the totes.

I keep repeating this, and I make no apologies for doing so, but just take a look at how much ,money pours into the totes around the Country, AFTER the radio or T.V. broadcasters/presenters, tell the punters in TAB's around the country what has been backed in the ring. It's the reason why 90% of horses that shorten in the ring pay unders on the tote if they win, compared with the starting price on the bookies board, let alone the top fluc.

All this bulldust that Shane Templeton and Richard Callander on TVN and Freedman on Sky go on with when they say,"this horse has been shortening since Thursday when the big money went on", is just that, bulldust. NO ONE, can get on for any big money with the Corps on Saturday, let alone on Thursday.

How many of you have wanted $100 on a horse, been cut back to $10.00 and while you were waiting for the decision to be made back in London whether or not to let you on, have seen the price tumble just as a result of your request.

The real betting is on track. Stand within ear shot of Peter Bartletts stand on a Saturday, and you will hear, some of the calls he receives from some of Australias biggest punters wanting big money on horses. I found the Perth ring to be a vibrant betting place with thousands being bet there. And when Darren comes on Sky and tells punters what has been backed, this stimulates the tote betting from which 17% is extracted from every dollar placed in the win pool a decent portion of which goes back to the race clubs eventually finding it's way into prize money.

What the Corps publish as far as the so called big bets go, is totally unproven and I know at least 4 big punters here in Melbourne and one in Sydney, who cannot get on. Another big Sydney punter whom I have not spoken to in some time, bet with a leading on course bookie in Perth because he couldn't get set for what he wanted in the Sydney ring, let alone with the Corps. Now the Tab won't let "smart" punters on and are restricting them as well.

Singapore with no bookies, 25% take out in the win pool. Give it 3 months without bookies in Australia, and watch them follow Singapore's lead.

Yes, P.T. you will go to certain race meetings and the bookies might take advantage of the punters. It then becomes a matter of Caveat Emptor, buyer beware. It is not compulsory to bet with them. But as I said in my previous post, even in markets of 160% at small Country meetings, those in the "know" will always find one or two horses that they consider to be value.

Have a look at Port Macquarie today.

Race 1. Opening market 169.7%. Number 2, $13 into $4.40. Didn't run a place.

Race 2 Opening market 147.8% Number 4 $2.60 into $2.00 Won PAID $1.80 on NSW tote

Whether the horses backed won or didn't run a place, is irrelevant.

What any wise punter who understands percentages will tell you, is that bookies betting to 160% is disgraceful. And they would be right, IF not one horse was backed in the race with that high%.

In that first race at P.M. the market finished, based on the top fluc of each horse, at 139.5 %. That's still 22.5 % more than the Tote take out.Had number two won the first race, it would have paid $6.60 on the NSW tote. Compare that to the top fluc.

This is why we need bookies on track, this is why it would be a disaster for Tab turnover and punters who seek value,if there were no bookies on track.

youknowit · April 2014

Bookielover. Agree with all your comments. There are no circumstances where it is acceptable for bookies to frame a market above 130% at opening. However this seems to be the norm at outer country tracks by people who cant do the form and find it difficult to take a risk.

bookielover · April 2014

Hi youknowit.

It was remiss of me not to comment on your post. The value at the track especially at city meetings, is incredible.

As you correctly point pout, bookies are getting down to 100%.

NOW, here's one for the books, if you will pardon the pun.

Get on the Unibet/Betchoice web site and bring up the market for race three today at Port Macquarie.

Bookies opened the market at 134.5%. When betting stropped, at top fluc, the bookies had bet to 99.7%

That is incredible value at what can only be termed an ordinary meeting. I have been to a Tuesday meeting at Port, great facilities by the way, good bar and excellent tucker, and they usually have 4 bookies there. When I was there, in 2009, there were three Commission agents running around. The bookies would bet them to win between 2 and 5 thousand depending on the odds of the horse.

From what I have been told since then, nothing much has changed. Comm agents don't go to meetings where their punters either can't get value or can't get on. One of the really good bookies there is a female bookie called Kerrie Borgia who will give you a decent bet.

Interestingly, in that third race, number 4 was 5.00 into 2.50 and number 2 was 8.00 into 4.80. The bookies supervisor takes the odds from two boards and sends those odds off track. But as you would know, it's possible that one bookie at any one time, may have given 6.00 and 10.00 the two horses which would lessen the % by a further 6% to 94.7 approximately, so if you were smart enough, you could have backed every horse to show an overall profit of 6.3% on your money. Better than bank interest. And that's without allowing for a bookie at any one time giving a point or two better on the other horses.

Now I know that it is virtually impossible to do what I have just suggested, get top odds every horse, but my point, like yours, is that you can find value at every race meeting, firstly if you know the form and do your own markets, and secondly, if you can shop well.

SLIPPERGOLDEN · April 2014

Excellent assessment Bookielover.

You mentioned TV Hosts and it is also funny when they talk about the on course money. At some tracks lucky if there are one or two bookies so it wouldn't take much money for horses to firm.

loose_goose · April 2014

bookielover said:

In that regard, as promoters of the racing product, and encouraging people to come to the track,race callers and most presenters are worse than useless.

Not sure that would be part of there job description. I read and agree and enjoy most what you write, but find that comment a bit of a rant that is trivial. Pretty sure it is the Race Clubs that should be promoting there product, and if Bookies need people on course so they will bet with them then they need to do there bit of promotion, which leads me to my opinion - The Corporates have f**ked up the need or requirement for people needing or wanting to be on course.

Ngawyni · April 2014

youknowit said:
PT You did make comments about all legal on another post

I made the comment about All Legal winning over 2000m. It was over 40 years ago so I could be mistaken. If you've got All Legal's race record I'ld love to see it.

PuntingTragic · April 2014

Ngawyni said:

youknowit said:
PT You did make comments about all legal on another post
I made the comment about All Legal winning over 2000m. It was over 40 years ago so I could be mistaken. If you've got All Legal's race record I'ld love to see it.

Thank you ngawini perhaps @ you-knowjack may like to apologise to me for his false accusation but I doubt he will

Bookie lover you make some fair points but just curious

Are you related to Tolstoy at all Jesus your posts are war an peace like lol

PuntingTragic · April 2014

SLIPPERGOLDEN said:
Excellent assessment Bookielover.

You mentioned TV Hosts and it is also funny when they talk about the on course money. At some tracks lucky if there are one or two bookies so it wouldn't take much money for horses to firm.

True story this many years ago me an three mates walked into the ring at Ascot on Melbourne cup day an had 50 ew My Blue Denim I had 100 ew an the bookie shit himself an reeled the horse in ten points I laughed at him a Melbourne cup an two mediocre bets had him reeling a horse in the race ten points

From that day on I had scant respect for bookies

Lucky kalaf called me four eyes once I asked him if he would like a souvlaki up his clacker I used to love betting with lucky love hate relationship I got him he got me to be fair we were probably even at the end

He had personality lucky kalaf great bloke a real bookie not like the pretenders now days

bookielover · April 2014

Hi Loose Goose,

Firstly, I would have thought that everyone who has the interests of racing at heart, would do their utmost to try and attract people to the track.

Secondly, the general public out there, with all due respect to them, are like sheep. They follow the tipsters poll, they follow Wes Cameron, they follow Darren, they say to each other, "did you see that big bet that Sportingbet took on race 5 tomorrow? I'll be on that." Little do they know that it's more than likely a fictitious bet. They follow the Sky tipsters, AND when the presenters on Radio and TV say that so and so "has been backed for a stack" they rush in to fill out their betting slip in the TAB to get on that horse.

It's very difficult to educate sheep. I have heard them in the past say, as Brian Blackmore and ALL of our race callers say when a horse pays unders on the tote as compared to it's S.P let alone the top fluc that was bet, "well any price about a winner is a good one" or "well it's better to back a short priced winner than a long priced loser" and so on and so forth.

What I never hear the broadcasters say, is if you had been on course, you could have got $5.00 that winner, rather than the 2.80 that it's paid on the tote.

Today is free entry at Ascot. I'll bet you that there will be a horse or horses that win, which, particularly if they start favourite, will pay unders on the tote.

At no stage, should that happen, will you hear Darren or Wes say after the race, "it's free entry today. Those of you who copped the $2.80 rather than the $5.00 that was bet by the bookies, why aren't you here on course today when it's free to get in? Aren't you interested in getting the right value for your dollar?" and they could say a lot more to at least TRY and encourage off track punters to come to the track.

And remember this LG. All the presenters, commentators etc. make their living from the Racing business, and if you or me are in any business of any type, surely it is incumbent upon us to see to it, and make every effort, to ensure that our business is successful, grows and prospers.

The best way to do that, is to encourage customers to come to our place of business. If the presenters did their job and understood how much influence they had on the general public, then pointing out the differential when the tote pays unders as compared to the bookies, MAY encourage a few extra people through the gate.

If you do nothing and say nothing, then your business will die a slow, painful, and not very pleasant death.

What I have suggested, is but an infinitesimal way to try and encourage an extra punter or two to come to the track.

If they bet with the tote when they get there, the club gets twice as much out of their turnover than from the off course tote punter. They will eat and drink, so the club gets money out of that. And who knows, maybe their experience at the track will lead them into buying a horse, so the breeders benefit, the trainers benefit by getting new owners, and new money is poured into the game.

Anyway, fk it. Let's just leave things at the status quo. Fk the presenters and end everyone else. Let them all just keep getting that pay cheque deposited into their accounts. Why encourage anyone to come to the track. Let everyone sit on their hands and do nothing.

As everyone keeps telling me from bookies I know to trainers that are battling that I know, to a couple of jockeys that find it hard to get a ride that I know, the games fkd.

So in the typical Aussie way, let's just leave it like that.

bookielover · April 2014

P.T.

My missus never lets me get a word in.

This is the only place where I get to say what I want.

:D

loose_goose · April 2014

bookielover said:

bookielover said:
Hi Loose Goose,

Firstly, I would have thought that everyone who has the interests of racing at heart, would do their utmost to try and attract people to the track.

Secondly, the general public out there, with all due respect to them, are like sheep. They follow the tipsters poll, they follow Wes Cameron, they follow Darren, they say to each other, "did you see that big bet that Sportingbet took on race 5 tomorrow? I'll be on that." Little do they know that it's more than likely a fictitious bet. They follow the Sky tipsters, AND when the presenters on Radio and TV say that so and so "has been backed for a stack" they rush in to fill out their betting slip in the TAB to get on that horse.

It's very difficult to educate sheep. I have heard them in the past say, as Brian Blackmore and ALL of our race callers say when a horse pays unders on the tote as compared to it's S.P let alone the top fluc that was bet, "well any price about a winner is a good one" or "well it's better to back a short priced winner than a long priced loser" and so on and so forth.

What I never hear the broadcasters say, is if you had been on course, you could have got $5.00 that winner, rather than the 2.80 that it's paid on the tote.

Today is free entry at Ascot. I'll bet you that there will be a horse or horses that win, which, particularly if they start favourite, will pay unders on the tote.

At no stage, should that happen, will you hear Darren or Wes say after the race, "it's free entry today. Those of you who copped the $2.80 rather than the $5.00 that was bet by the bookies, why aren't you here on course today when it's free to get in? Aren't you interested in getting the right value for your dollar?" and they could say a lot more to at least TRY and encourage off track punters to come to the track.

And remember this LG. All the presenters, commentators etc. make their living from the Racing business, and if you or me are in any business of any type, surely it is incumbent upon us to see to it, and make every effort, to ensure that our business is successful, grows and prospers.

The best way to do that, is to encourage customers to come to our place of business. If the presenters did their job and understood how much influence they had on the general public, then pointing out the differential when the tote pays unders as compared to the bookies, MAY encourage a few extra people through the gate.

If you do nothing and say nothing, then your business will die a slow, painful, and not very pleasant death.
What I have suggested, is but an infinitesimal way to try and encourage an extra punter or two to come to the track.

If they bet with the tote when they get there, the club gets twice as much out of their turnover than from the off course tote punter. They will eat and drink, so the club gets money out of that. And who knows, maybe their experience at the track will lead them into buying a horse, so the breeders benefit, the trainers benefit by getting new owners, and new money is poured into the game.

Anyway, fk it. Let's just leave things at the status quo. Fk the presenters and end everyone else. Let them all just keep getting that pay cheque deposited into their accounts. Why encourage anyone to come to the track. Let everyone sit on their hands and do nothing.

As everyone keeps telling me from bookies I know to trainers that are battling that I know, to a couple of jockeys that find it hard to get a ride that I know, the games fkd.

So in the typical Aussie way, let's just leave it like that.

you have give the Bookies a big pass there, they are the ones that are offering maybe the better price, so why are they not the ones that should be attracting the customer to the track. You make it sound like Wes and Darren are getting paid under false pretences, they are doing there job, not see that in your eyes they must be the promoters when other like the bookies are getting a free pass and expect the benefits riding on there coattails

bookielover · April 2014

You aren't getting the point I'm making which is promoting the value that's available from time to time on course as against the tote.

No one can predict with any 100% certainty whether or not a horse in the market that is well backed, will pay more on the tote than the top fluc that bookies offer during betting, or the horses S.P, before a race has been run and won.

So I don't expect bookies to advertise. They have enough trouble surviving as it is and wouldn't have the budget to give the campaign highlighting the difference in prices that may have occurred at a race meeting, the attention that would be required long term, to get the message across.

However, there is absolutely nothing preventing the race clubs promoting them more, on the basis that the punter gets to compare the odds and make an informed decision as with whom they should bet. But the race clubs have thrown their collective hands in the air, and have said publicly that they have to cop the fact that the public will only turn out for the Spring carnivals, some main meetings, and that's it. So they aren't interested in getting even one more person to the track outside of carnival meetings.

What I am trying to point out is, that if there is a marked difference in what the tote has paid compared to what you could have got if you had been on track comparing the odds, then as people employed by the racing industry whose salary comes from that industry, I would have thought that any promotion that people like Darren and Wes can give to at least attempt to get people to the track, should be part of their job description. And yes, even if that means giving bookies a bit of a bunk up. It probably would not make one iota of difference, but hammer home the message often enough, and who knows.

I would never, nor have I ever suggested that they "are getting paid under false pretences". That is frankly an insulting insinuation on your part,

I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt as to why they don't do it, by saying this. I reckon that it is because they are sh!!t scared that if they were to highlight the difference between the bookies price and the tote when the bookies price exceeds that which the Tote has paid, then the short sighted people who run the industry in Perth, and those that run the WATAB, would come down on them like a ton of bricks. And it's no different here in Melbourne.

I am sure that when Darren or Wes or anyone else at Sky gleefully reports that the horse which has just won and started at 31.00 with the bookies but paid 55.00 on the tote, no one would even think of having a go at them.

PuntingTragic · April 2014

bookielover said:
P.T.

My missus never lets me get a word in.

This is the only place where I get to say what I want.
:D

Just tell the mrs your trading her for a younger model that usually sharpens them up

I went today to Ascot BL bookies were not offering overs on anything on tatts .com burn alert or whatever it is was 4.20 bookies had him 2.80 there was no value once again I had a bet with punta the grumpy big shiela needs to get a personality an smile now an then hats if to them tho really like there board very clear

RIO · April 2014

bit confused PT.

Buhn Lert jumped at fixed odds of 2.70, Tote at 2.80 and you are saying the bookies had him at 2.80..Which is better than the biggest fixed odds player in the local market.

To my way of thinking they identified who they thought were going to win early and gave a fair price. Cant imagine the local ring could guarantee the best price of all players ever. But they did appear to get that one right.

PuntingTragic · April 2014

RIO said:
bit confused PT.

Buhn Lert jumped at fixed odds of 2.70, Tote at 2.80 and you are saying the bookies had him at 2.80..Which is better than the biggest fixed odds player in the local market.

To my way of thinking they identified who they thought were going to win early and gave a fair price. Cant imagine the local ring could guarantee the best price of all players ever. But they did appear to get that one right.

I was quoting tatts.com mate if you had an account why would you take 2.80 of an on course bookie when they had it at fixed at one stage at 4.20 ?

I deliberately took note of bookies prices in the members yesterday very little point against the tote in using them at all

10-20 cents what's the point when money thru the tote is better for the club as a member I'd rather do that

peleus · May 2014

Looks like it . I guess they have other things in might for those 10-20 cents though but I couldn't figure out what.

G'day Punter!

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