Timing of Thoroughbred Barrier Draws

TheDiva · May 2016

The Thoroughbred Racing Consultative Group (TRCG) today endorsed a recommendation from Racing &
Wagering Western Australia (RWWA) to implement a trial that involves a change in timing of barrier draws for
races in Western Australia, commencing from June 1st 2016.
Under the current system barriers for all races are drawn at release of weights.
After the release of weights horses are then either withdrawn or accepted in their races, with barriers then
adjusted accordingly, and a final field then declared. Many horses are withdrawn after release of weights because
they have drawn wide in a provisional field.
On many occasions there are such a heavy number of withdrawn horses, that the final field invariably ends up with
less than 8 acceptors, consequently becoming a pay 1,2 only event.
Analysis has shown there has been a total of 67 pay 1,2 races at Prime Metropolitan race meetings so far this
season (August 1 – April 30). This represents an alarming increase in the number of pay 1,2 races on prime
metropolitan race cards in comparison to previous seasons and is impacting negatively on wagering turnover.
Season
Pay
1,2
Total
Races %
2013/14 Entire season 39 408 9.55%
2014/15 Entire season 56 421 13.30%
2015/16 (Aug 1 ‐ April 30) 67 314 21.33%
Amending the timing of the barrier draw, provides the flexibility to extend acceptances and allow withdrawn horses
to be re-accepted into a field to reduce the number of pay 1,2 races. This is a strategy that has proven successful
in a number of other racing jurisdictions in Australia.
“It is clearly evident that the increasing number of pay 1,2 races at our prime wagering meetings is unsatisfactory.”
Acting Manager of Thoroughbred Racing, Ian Malpass said.
“The wagering customer expects more from our prime metropolitan racing product and we must enact policy
change to bring this increasing number under control.”
Data analysis has also indicated an alarming decrease in the number of individual runners to start in Western
Australia in the current racing season.
“Realistically, the biggest influence on small fields is the fact we are attempting to maintain the same volume of
racing with a significantly reduced pool of horses, contributing to the increased number of small fields.”
“This is an issue that RWWA will continue to work on closely with the industry, and any strategic changes will be
considered thoroughly in an attempt to improve the number of individual runners in WA.” Malpass said.
A condition of the trial is that the $45 non-acceptance fee that is charged to trainers will be abolished, and trainers
and owners will still have the opportunity to assess final fields before the requirement to name their jockeys.
The outcomes of the trial will continue to be monitored closely and continuously, with no end date set.
Media Contact:
Ian Malpass – Acting Manager Thoroughbred Racing
ian.malpass@rwwa.com.au Ph: 0406 171 872

TheDiva · May 2016

I assume the barriers will be drawn at time of acceptances... but it doesnt say that?

While I think this may entice more runners to go into those races that had less than 8 starters... the bottom line is, these horses can only start in ONE RACE.

This DOES NOT solve the problem of why there are not enough horses to fill the multitude of meetings each week.

There is one very good reason there are less horses. The game has become too expensive for most. As per the other tread.. to train a horse is upwards of $3500 per month. 5-6 years ago it wa about $2500 per month.

It is now beyond the reach of many people, particularly in a depressed economy. This is the root of the problem.. not the barrier draws.

H-BOMBER · May 2016

The Diva said:

There is one very good reason there are less horses. The game has become too expensive for most. As per the other tread.. to train a horse is upwards of $3500 per month. 5-6 years ago it wa about $2500 per month.

It is now beyond the reach of many people, particularly in a depressed economy. This is the root of the problem.. not the barrier draws.

So true!

Fastmoney · May 2016

https://soundcloud.com/tabradio/may-13-ian-malpass.

TheDiva · May 2016

Listening to that.. its clear they dont believe that more horses will appear... they are just trying to get that 1 or 2 more horses to race on a saturday instead of a midweek... and save from having sub 8 horse fields.

Its a good start.. but as stated previously, there is a MUCH bigger problem.

paraletic · May 2016

The Diva said:
I assume the barriers will be drawn at time of acceptances... but it doesnt say that?

While I think this may entice more runners to go into those races that had less than 8 starters... the bottom line is, these horses can only start in ONE RACE.

This DOES NOT solve the problem of why there are not enough horses to fill the multitude of meetings each week.

There is one very good reason there are less horses. The game has become too expensive for most. As per the other tread.. to train a horse is upwards of $3500 per month. 5-6 years ago it wa about $2500 per month.

It is now beyond the reach of many people, particularly in a depressed economy. This is the root of the problem.. not the barrier draws.

I agree, but how do you get costs down to make it more affordable? I also think attracting owners to the game is getting harder and harder, the perceived lack of transparency within the industry is a real issue. Ask an outsider if they would like to own a horse and although interested, they chicken out. For every good story there is 1000 bad stories to go along with horse ownership. However, we have owners only to attract more people to the game, hows that going???
:-q

Tivers · May 2016

Will just make it even less affordable as now have to pay the $180 scratch fee if draw wide rather than the $49 fee.

TheDiva · May 2016

making it more expensive again, and contributing to the problem rather than fixing it.

This policy may reduce the number of six horse fields... but those horses can only run in one race.. so all they are doing is spreading the same number of horses over the races that are available... but in the long run, driving up the cost of owning a horse.

RIO · May 2016

Did they do any work on analyzing how many of the horse that were scratched accepted in another race at the same meeting???

And as for working with industry to increase the number of horses????? WHAT A FARKING JOKE

Some of their own departments are busting ass to encourage as many owners out of the industry as it possibly can, by wasting their time with frivolous, time wasting crap that they poorly investigate...If RWWA could get one UNIFIED message across to the industry we may have a chance to survive...growth will have to come back later, after confidence has been reinstated....

Way too many dickwits in the company trying to justify their future existence to be unified....Reduce the races by 5% and increase the prize money by 3% for the next 2 year and we may be able to fill fields on Saturdays. As this short fall will only get worse next year.

Fastmoney · May 2016

Not sure the "not enough horses" theory is correct, it is more case of not enough City class horses.

Melb/Syd have a far more meetings but generally only have 8 City races per week (same as WA).

So WA is trying to produce a City meeting with the same amount of runners as Melb/Syd with far less City horses available.

To me its the handicapping system (and the randomness of the ratings) that is the source of the problem.

What`s needed is for more provincial horses to migrate to City meetings, then the trick is not to excessively penalize them for winning and not having average horses make up fields for the better class ones (current situation).

The programming of individual races needs to change. Unfortunately RWWA, despite having all the data from previous years, basically trot out the same program year after year. Instead of the usual " fields always drop off at this time of the year" response, do something to amend the program.

To me there is a total lack of innovation within RWWA and the associated industry associations.

Whats needed is a total overhaul, probably without the influence of the most recent decision makers.

Would think the problem could be fixed relatively quickly.

Tivers · May 2016

Been saying for a long time - there should be a cap on (penalty) points.

That will fix it.

eg Can't get more than say 6 points for winning a race, regardless of how out of your grade you run.

RIO · May 2016

Does anyone know who within the industry they consulted with on this???? the more I think about it, the less effective I think it will be to do what they want it to be!!!

Fastmoney · May 2016

RIO said:
Does anyone know who within the industry they consulted with on this???? the more I think about it, the less effective I think it will be to do what they want it to be!!!

Says it was endorsed at the TRCG.

Representatives from the following groups attend.

Metro – 2 nominees from Perth Racing (WATC) + CEO
Provincial – 1 nominee from the Western Australian Provincial Thoroughbred Racing Association
Country – 1 nominee from the Country Racing Association
Owners – 1 nominee from the Western Australian Racehorse Owners' Association
Breeders – 1 nominee from Thoroughbred Breeders Western Australia (WABBA)
Trainers – 1 nominee from the Western Australian Racing Trainers' Association
Jockeys – 1 nominee from the Western Australian Jockeys' Association
Bookmakers – 1 nominee from the Western Australian Bookmakers' Association

RIO · May 2016

thanks...are the TRCG a rubber stamp mob? or do they actually have deep and meaningful discussions. I just think it will severely effect outer country race meetings. Where a country trainer may nominate a horse in 3 different races trying to get the best barrier.. Without knowing what barrier you have, they will struggle to jag it right. therefore a horse that runs every 2 weeks out bush may get a whole season without having a collect due to not being able to get the right barrier....Not sure how that will help increase field sizes at Metro meets. But I know it will break some owners and trainer in out country racing.

It sounds such a silly thing to write...Have i misread how it will impact those country meets???

carey · May 2016

Tivers said:
Been saying for a long time - there should be a cap on (penalty) points.
That will fix it.

eg Can't get more than say 6 points for winning a race, regardless of how out of your grade you run.

surely you are kidding tivers?
that would be the least intelligent suggestion i have ever seen on ptt, and that's from somebody that generally respects your pov.

thankfully, it will NEVER happen, so you can keep wishing.

Fastmoney · May 2016

TRGC explanation in this link

Minutes at the bottom of the page

http://www.rwwa.com.au/home/industry/thoroughbred-consultative-group-307.html.

They are legislated to consult with the various industry groups.

All depends what individuals consider "consulting". My experience, a lot of decisions made behind closed doors, and then rolled out at the 4 meetings a year.

Saying that, if all the participant groups were against a particular change they would have trouble implementing the change.

With so many groups with so many different agendas its normally only 1 or 2 that disagree, that is followed by a token discussion, then the RWWA initiative is implemented.

Fastmoney · May 2016

In the November minutes (item 5.8), the change to barrier draws was rejected but RWWA warned of its implementation if field sizes didn`t improve.

DamienWyer · May 2016

Won't this practice replicate what happens over East ?

Legless · May 2016

Yes DW - wait awhile WA again #-o

"The outcomes of the trial will continue to be monitored closely and continuously, with no end date set." :D

RIO · May 2016

I think over east the country trainers can nominate for about 4 races over 3 tracks in 3 days, all of them within 200km of each other, and select the best barrier for the horse.

If you miss a good barrier in Carnarvon not much chance you'll nominate for Northam 2, or Belmont 3 days later in the hope of a better barrier..its not always a case of what works in one place works in the other

buffy · May 2016

Not quite Rio. WA is the only jurisdiction in Australia which has operated under the current system. All that is happening is they are coming into line with Australia. Whether this helps the field sizes is another thing. Maybe its tim to only have seven race programs during the week.

RIO · May 2016

RIO said:
I think over east the country trainers can nominate for about 4 races over 3 tracks in 3 days, all of them within 200km of each other, and select the best barrier for the horse.

buffy said:
Not quite Rio. WA is the only jurisdiction in Australia which has operated under the current system. All that is happening is they are coming into line with Australia. Whether this helps the field sizes is another thing. Maybe its tim to only have seven race programs during the week.

maybe the ones close to any border with NSW..Yes it is an exaggerated stretch, but just highlighting some of the differences that affect this policy in other states compared to here, IMO

And i agree even more with your last sentence..No idea how this is goign to address the small fields...hope their right though

Amyquil · May 2016

I stated on here about 5 years ago that there was one main problem to be fixed (I know there are 1 million smaller ones). Carey asked me what that was and I said "field sizes".

Nothing's changed in that regard. I wonder why its taken so long for someone to address it? Hopefully the horse hasn't bolted.

I also said at the time that something imaginative or different (for thoroughbreds) needed to be tried.

Like, for example, the incentives that the trots had for years (don't know about these days - I don't follow it) but in handicaps a bonus was paid for every ten metres further back a winner started.

Why not pay an extra 5% for every barrier wider than 10. ie. if you start from barrier 13 your winner's cheque is 15% higher.

Surely that is some incentive to start from a wide draw.

And this is definitely one for Carey, but maybe in order to save itself WA should do away with the compressed weights that now exist everywhere. Surely more horses would run if they could get in with 50 or 48 kg.

They run with these sorts of weights in Group 1 handicaps so any argument against having it across the board is complete rubbish.

If you can get a jockey to ride at the weight you deserve you should be able to do that. Surely that would increase fields. Who is going to run with 54 kg when your horse deserves 47 kg?

But the distance may suit perfectly; the pace; the conditions; the barrier and the horse's progression all may be to advantage but why run with 54 kg (like half the field).

A disincentive to run and a total bore to punt on.

Finally, if the best racing jurisdiction, on the score of talent, in this country struggles to get decent field sizes when they are racing for 80 grand, then obviously we need to find something original to solve the problem.

Amyquil · May 2016

Further to that, I have also said on here before that I cannot get my head around why a field of non or single city winners races for the same stake money as open class horses.

Once again it borrows from the trots, but it makes complete sense for me to pay higher stakes for a higher grade.

It is just illogical, unless you factor in the influence of breeders.

I actually spoke in depth to a former not-so esteemed WA handicapper and he saw 2 yo racing as nothing short of charity. Maybe it's time such things were said publicly because I doubt they add anything to turnover.

Amyquil · May 2016

Another one for Carey:

Is this hair-brained?

For example: Today we will have a 1000; a 1400; an 1800; and a 2400.

Enter your horse; you may get 40 kg. You may get 68 kg. Prize money will be commensurate with the weight you carry; and maybe even the barrier you draw.

This of course doesn't address rating points, but as you can see, I don't know much, so I certainly can't solve that problem

Ridersonthestorm33 · May 2016

Tomorrows 2 year old race is a field of 8 with 5 of them 70/1 or better. 3 horses completely dominating the market.

DamienWyer · May 2016

A Maiden should open or close every card at Belmont and Ascot.

thefalcon · May 2016

not the last, the final leg of the quaddie...

Chelsea · May 2016

Why implement it now.
Albany,Geraldton and the Bunbury seasons have just finished, so there is more than enough horses to go around for the next couple of months, to increase field sizes.
Take a look at the nominations for Belmont and Pinjarra next week,will get close to full fields especially Pinjarra where rail is out 8m and maximum field size is 12 with nominations for some races exceeding 30

Voodoo · May 2016

the falcon said:
not the last, the final leg of the quaddie...

The last should always be comparable to the old welter.
Never failed to produce a competitive field and numbers were never a problem.

cheers

ColourfulRD · May 2016

Gr 1 winners to 2 year old winners use to run and win Welters, the good horses would carry 10 stone, Welters were a great spectacle. Imagine Lucky Grey after winning a Roma Cup starting in a 1400m welter with 68kg in 3 weeks, Personally I think it would be great

G'day Punter!

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